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  1. #1

    hand from 8-max low stakes 4.4$ 1000-cap tourney 4K guaranteed..

    at Pokerstars and was playing 4.5$ 1000 max NLH tourney... I wanted an opinion from you on the following hand :

    9 players left..its an 8-max table tourney..5 players on my table..4 on the other one

    Blinds 4K-8k..

    I m BB with 250K...
    SB is 500K (has been aggressively 3-betting me)
    UTG has 300K (not aggressive, playing his cards)
    Button has 600K

    UTG opens for 24K
    SB calls
    I have AJ os..I call (was thinking of shoving but was wary of UTG considering he opened and his position with 2 aggressive big stacks behind him. Thought he was holding premium hand).. 3bet would have been called by the SB.. who I think would not have gone away and flatted anything other than a shove.. )

    flop 9d-10d-Js

    SB checks..
    I bet out a little more than half pot wanting to know where UTG is at..
    UTG folds..
    SB shoves...

    I fold my TopPairTopKicker.. running thru all his holdings...set .. flush draw.. open ender.. I didnt want to bust out 9th.. considerable difference in 9th and 8th (which was final table at 8-max) and the 9th guy had 80K left...

    This leaves me crippled.. and I flame out in next few hands when my 88 goes bust against an AK.. leaves me gutted as I bust out 9th..

    suggestions welcome...

  2. #2

    Re: hand from 8-max low stakes 4.4$ 1000-cap tourney 4K guaranteed..

    You may have played the hand alright...but in hindsight a check would have been a better play i believe. Here are my reasons:

    From ur description: the guy UTG (playing his cards)...so in this situation with button and SB(big stacks to act), his raise of 3 times the blind indicates- he is strong and UTG- very strong...may be JJ-AA/AK/or at max...AQ.

    The guy at SB: aggressive and from this it looks like he can hold anything but not squa-doosh because he knows if the guy UTG raises pre-flop surely the guy has something... so he flat calls.

    Your position: No way you can go all-in there with AsJs...blinds 4k/8k...u hv 250k(shortstack at table) but still u can survive for 20 more rounds by just folding- so no way all-in. A raise is also no point- as you know the UTG is tight player surely holding something, and SB will call anything. So a call is apt.

    After Flop: Js9d10d
    SB checks- To me doesn't indicate any stuff. He can have anything.
    Your turn BB- Since there is a flush draw which you haven't hit at all and a straight draw which would be remotely impossible to hit and also knowing the the guy to act behind(UTG) is a tight player who atleast can have a higher pair than urs or an AK or AQ. Apart from all these, the mystery of what SB must be holding. So a check would have been appropriate to see what the UTG would have done. I believe he would have checked as well if he dint hit anything with agressive players acting and also that kinda scary flop(straight and flush draw).

    Also if you raise half the pot, and the guy at UTG who has good chance of holding AQ or QQ has 8 outs for straight and 15 outs if they are suited diamonds. So he still can have the odds to call you and take a gamble.
    This case where you raised half the pot and he folds...to me indicates he may have had AK.

    Now the guy at SB: Since he is agressive with not much info it was always good to check behind him and see what he does at the turn. I believe in this case he may have made a move or must have been playing with connectors 910/10J/JQ.

    So all in all, in hindsight i believe you should have checked. Just my opinion.

  3. #3

    Re: hand from 8-max low stakes 4.4$ 1000-cap tourney 4K guaranteed..

    Going all in preflop is certainly a profitable move in this scenario, and you shouldn't be too worried about the utg raiser, as you are playing 5 handed, so even a tight opening range should include A LOT of hands worse than AJ. As played, I definitely wouldn't fold on the flop as there are so many hands you can beat. You said you considered his holding such as flush draws, set, etc. However, you didn't consider the possibility of him having a worse top pair, such as KJ and QJ which would be very common holdings since he just called the raise preflop, and well as some hands like QTs/Q9s/89s where he could be semi-bluffing with a pair and open ender. There are just way too many hands you can beat, and so few combos of hands that you are behind...not to mention the pot odds you have at this point, so I would definitely get it all in on the flop.

  4. #4

    Re: hand from 8-max low stakes 4.4$ 1000-cap tourney 4K guaranteed..

    @cdbr3799
    hind sight says UTG was middle pockets or AK.. and would have called the shove from me.. and I would be flipping or was dominated which is what I didnt want to do at that point... I wanted a better spot to shove.. then maybe again i m just a silly nit... lol..
    @siddharth
    I think check on the flop would have taken away any chance of getting my hands on that pot.. would have lost more money if SB folded to the c-bet from UTG.. and I would have had to check raise (to know what SB had) which would be more costly... if SB really had KK AA QQ he would come over top of my check raise.. and I would have to fold losing a lot more than my lead out bet...

    but lets say we check.. UTG c-bets half pot... SB folds... (hypothetical)... how do we take it from there?.. check raise.. or just flat it and fold if he fires a second barrel..

  5. #5

    Re: hand from 8-max low stakes 4.4$ 1000-cap tourney 4K guaranteed..

    hmm...UTG betting at the flop, the question to ask-
    1) Would he bet half the pot with a decent hand knowing both the SB and BB equally capable of check-rasing him all-in and also would he bet half the pot with that kinda flop(a staright draw and a flush draw) and dont forget even he wants to enter the final 8.
    Also will he bet with nothing knowing that whatever he bets and if called by BB means BB is pot commited.
    2) If UTG bets, half the pot- SB may be since the flop helped him or he wants to make a move-moved all-in...so u get any easy decision- fold.
    If UTG bets, SB folds....you would call. After the turn...you check and he bets again, means he has already put in 60K...and the bet at turn would be like 75-90K ...so that means about 150k....which means he is pot committed(half is stack is in)...now thats ur decision then...depends on ur read would he make a move for his tournament life with nothing or he really has something....decision time!!
    But in your message earlier you said UTG is a tight player and plays his card...so i dont think he would have bet initially itself on the flop with SB and BB to act and that kinda flop...lets say he would atleast wont bet the turn with nothing...remember even he wants to enter the final table and the money..

    i would play like that because i would like to enter the final table...I wouldnt be suprised if this play may sound silly...lemme know your thoughts... silly playor acceptable play :P

  6. #6

    Re: hand from 8-max low stakes 4.4$ 1000-cap tourney 4K guaranteed..

    Quote Originally Posted by siddarth_singhvi
    hmm...UTG betting at the flop, the question to ask-
    1) Would he bet half the pot with a decent hand knowing both the SB and BB equally capable of check-rasing him all-in and also would he bet half the pot with that kinda flop(a staright draw and a flush draw) and dont forget even he wants to enter the final 8.
    Also will he bet with nothing knowing that whatever he bets and if called by BB means BB is pot commited.
    2) If UTG bets, half the pot- SB may be since the flop helped him or he wants to make a move-moved all-in...so u get any easy decision- fold.
    If UTG bets, SB folds....you would call. After the turn...you check and he bets again, means he has already put in 60K...and the bet at turn would be like 75-90K ...so that means about 150k....which means he is pot committed(half is stack is in)...now thats ur decision then...depends on ur read would he make a move for his tournament life with nothing or he really has something....decision time!!
    But in your message earlier you said UTG is a tight player and plays his card...so i dont think he would have bet initially itself on the flop with SB and BB to act and that kinda flop...lets say he would atleast wont bet the turn with nothing...remember even he wants to enter the final table and the money..

    i would play like that because i would like to enter the final table...I wouldnt be suprised if this play may sound silly...lemme know your thoughts... silly playor acceptable play :P
    This whole analysis is wrong ... read the scenario UTG FOLDED on the FLOP so this is redundant.
    "When torrential water tosses boulders, it is because of momentum. When the strike of a hawk breaks the body of its prey, it is because of timing. Thus, the momentum of one skilled in war is overwhelming, and his attack precisely regulated".

  7. #7

    Re: hand from 8-max low stakes 4.4$ 1000-cap tourney 4K guaranteed..

    Personally I would either FOLD or SHOVE for the following reasons

    1. It is 5 handed so UTG may have wider starting range than 8 handed

    2. SB called and despite his aggressive nature he also is aware of UTG habits and range. Hence he will not be flatting with just anything.

    3. AJ is horrible to play three handed and out of position by flat calling unless you hit the dream flop. You will always be under a tough decision .. especially against a maniac SB .. unless you are prepared to call regardless and with top pair, top kicker .. it should be a call. He could be firing with anything if you have a tight image (that i have no clue about) .. but you have to factor your image into the decision making process .. he is basing his decisions on it, there you have to as well ...

    4. 24k at the stage is 2 complete rounds which at 12k a pop go round quickly ... wait for a better spot

    5. You have to factor your post bet flops into your preflop decision and with 72k in the pot preflop it will not be cheap. that is potentially 3 streets at a minimum of 24k another 72k to you minimum calculation which will leave you with say approx 150k .. but more likely you will dip to under 100k .... these calculations are fluid ...

    Option A; FOLD you lose your BB and wait for an easier spot .. minimum damage and self-explanatory

    Option B: If you decide to play you then the best play is a SHOVE

    a) Unless UTG has premium hand (doubtful as if he is aware the SB 3 bets light then he would limp in order to let him raise /bluff ...

    b) SB only called and if he had a monster he would certainly raise to get it heads up and eliminate you.

    Therefore if you raise ALLIN you give yourself the following

    1. Chance to take it down preflop and add 72k to your stack (well 48k)

    2. Win on showdown ...

    3. You have no further "tricky decisions" to make ...

    I do not think the SB would call a shove for half his stack preflop on a race .. even so I think he would have been behind
    especially after the flop .. and if he sucks out with a call well it's better than bleeding away

    So in conclusion it was FOLD or SHOVE preflop ...






    "When torrential water tosses boulders, it is because of momentum. When the strike of a hawk breaks the body of its prey, it is because of timing. Thus, the momentum of one skilled in war is overwhelming, and his attack precisely regulated".

  8. #8

    Re: hand from 8-max low stakes 4.4$ 1000-cap tourney 4K guaranteed..

    You had 2 options...
    1) Play for atleast 8th Place
    OR
    2) Play Poker

    As soon as you called with AJ, you had by default chosen both options, which was a disaster...
    Once you called, you would not be comfortable putting in any more money unless you hit the nuts or near nuts...
    And once you lead out on the flop to the tight UTG raiser in that spot, the range of hands other players can put you on narrows down considerably...So you also gave away information there to both the UTG and the SB...
    Also if you think carefully, more than finding out where UTG is at, you involuntarily wanted to finish the hand right there with your raise because of the pay jump...might not be true, but possible...

    Next time, clear your head and if you decide to go with option 1 here, then fold your way to the pay jump, because you can never ever and never ever play for both the options 1 and 2...

  9. #9

    Re: hand from 8-max low stakes 4.4$ 1000-cap tourney 4K guaranteed..

    Go all In pre flop and hope for the best....
    in the poker game of life, women are the rake

  10. #10

    Re: hand from 8-max low stakes 4.4$ 1000-cap tourney 4K guaranteed..

    Quote Originally Posted by richestuser
    Go all In pre flop and hope for the best....
    Personally that is my favoured option for the described scenario as well. Squeeze play always looks stronger .. but folding is not wrong either.
    "When torrential water tosses boulders, it is because of momentum. When the strike of a hawk breaks the body of its prey, it is because of timing. Thus, the momentum of one skilled in war is overwhelming, and his attack precisely regulated".

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